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Thread: Shota/Loli: Is is illegal??

  1. #1
    Member desideraht's Avatar
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    Shota/Loli: Is is illegal??

    I would like to start off with a disclaimer, since this is a really sensitive subject.
    1. I do not support child abuse in any way.
    2. I am not attracted to "real children" in any way.
    3. I do not feel loli/shota "glorifies" child abuse just like I don't feel furry porn encourages bestiality.

    Now that that's out of the way...

    I know this is a weird question to ask, considering anyone here who looks at Ciel yaoi is looking at shota. I'm pretty sure most of us have seen Ciel yaoi/shota at some point and there aren't any cops breaking our doors down. My concern comes from me wanting to draw shota, or get away with heavy sexual themes in doujinshi. If I so much as drew Sebastian kissing Ciel, if shota is illegal, I could get in trouble. Drawing it is more incriminating than looking at it, sadly. Especially if I actually want to share it or write doujinshi (I mean I don't really draw pictures just so I can hide them).

    Yet a lot of SebastianxCiel doujinshi exists. It's all over the place and even hosted on American sites. I don't think anyone's ever gotten in trouble for anime-related shota/loli.

    I did some reading and there are articles stating that "child porn" is illegal, "whether or not the characters involved are depictions of real people". You'd think because anime does not involve real children, it wouldn't even be remotely comparable to child abuse, but for some reason, at least 2 or 3 people in the US have gone to prison for drawing cartoon porn containing underage characters.

    But I've had many people say that the chances of me actually getting in trouble for it is very unlikely, especially since it's the manga genre, where the age of a character is less clear by appearances (and not popular American cartoons). That being said, a person would have to read and understand Kuroshitsuji to know Ciel is underage, and I won't lie; it would be rather amusing to see people defend the sexual liberties of a fictional 13 year old boy in a courtroom.

    Also if this IS actually illegal then a lot of us belong in jail right now for looking at shota, lol. I know a lot of you have done it, intentionally or not. xD I have pretty strong feelings that I'm in the clear but I was wondering if anyone else has researched this particular topic and verified the legality on this matter. Yes, I've had people say, "It's not hard to not draw it!" I get that. And I haven't drawn any. Yet. I will draw some if it turns out to be something I won't get in trouble for.

    Additionally, some more specific descriptions of the laws involve "severity" as well as stating if the character is under the age of 12, so perhaps it only applies to prepubescent characters? Maybe I am in the clear since the Ciel I'm drawing is 13 or older, not younger. The laws also address "sadistic/masochistic abuse" which actually puts my doujinshi at risk because it's a medical horror... But then again, when I really think about it, even the actual Kuroshitsuji manga has some pretty hardcore stuff in it (when Ciel was being tortured by the cult). I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear and I've read manga involving youths that was even more harsh than that in English, published here in America.

    I'm fairly certain I am in the clear (hence drawing my manga anyway) but I wanted to see if anyone has heard of anyone in the US getting nailed for drawing or possessing shota/loli.

    Finally, I've had people say, "Well, if you're worried about it, is it worth the risk? Just don't draw it." The answer is I can't take an answer that vague. I want a solid answer instead of shying away from something that might be perfectly okay to draw. Especially since I don't really intend on drawing hardcore yaoi (but may want to eventually if it's legal?). I just want to learn as much about this as I can without consulting a lawyer or something lol.

    I suppose my greatest fear is not getting in trouble now, but perhaps retroactively getting in trouble later if my art gets really popular years from now.
    Last edited by desideraht; 01-23-2013 at 11:09 AM.

  2. #2
    ~badass nutcase~ Yokoskitsune's Avatar
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    the government rules about shota/lolita is really sketchy but basically, this is the general thing about that

    real life shota (I'm talking real legit cases of adult/child)- IS illegal

    owning/looking at real life shota porno- TECHNICALLY illegal, but only if you're caught is usually the case

    with explicit anime/cosplay/manga shota, loli, yaoi, and yuri, it's a different case because the characters are FICTIONAL and NOT physically nor situationally based off of real people (usually), and is generally labeled as fantasy/fetish material.

    that said, shota/loli is totally legal, and as far as art goes, as long as it is your own drawings, cosplays, comics/fanmanga, you rate it appropriately (18+/explicit/whatever the case is), and you give credit to the original creator of the characters used, and if you sell them, stick to online and conventions; you will be fine.

    hope this helps some
    Last edited by Yokoskitsune; 01-23-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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  3. #3
    Fuck your Logic !! Sangre Belleza's Avatar
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    To answer your question it's not Illegal . Tumblr and other sites that host images of explicit nature of shota/lolicons would already be in trouble. As long as you are not referring to an actaul child it's fine. The FBI and other agencies are looking for real pedophilia not drawings and literature. Though there are some books out there i question .



    Now as a parent i view Loli and shota in a different light. I don't like it , though i don't judge those who do. It's there right to view what they want to. But i don't like it when people defend actual child molesters . Yes. You read that right , when i talk about it this in a parental view i get people who actually say " well if it keeps them from hurting a real child then it can be used as a theraputic method". No , No don't dare say this shit to me. Now if you like it , go ahead and like it , but , do not condone the actions of sick fucks with your own.

    This is the only problem i have with it , those people who defend there love by saying that it helps child molesters with there problems. At the end of the day there just drawings , it's what people say towards the drawings that can have a negative effect to it.

    Again i am not hating on those who do like it. I don't care if you do , so don't spam me with hate. I'm just saying if you like it own up to it, don't justify you love by saying that it helps fucking sick bastards. That's what those people are sick bastards.
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  4. #4
    Jack the Ripper DEATHButler's Avatar
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    Shota/Loli porn is not illegal, unless pornography contains real minors, it is not illegal.

    However, I personally have issues with shota yaoi, and I'm really sick of fangirls fetishizing gay relationships, eroticizing male/male rape, and glorifying sex with minors, especially given that most of it is against the uke/bottom's will or they are in a situation where they aren't able to give proper consent. I'm not going to go on a crusade, but I really advise against it.
    If fans want to write slash, go ahead, I might have reservations on the whole thing (romanticizing and glorifying gay relationships), but I will say my peace, however when shota comes up, and most shota is rape-based or eroticizing taking advantage of the bottom, I have a hard line against it.

  5. #5
    Member desideraht's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies!

    @ Yokoskitsune: Very helpful. I had a feeling that anime/manga shota/loli isn't taken as seriously as "real depictions". I don't even consider them remotely similar genres, because when a REAL child is involved, someone is being deeply harmed. As for drawings of fictional people... no one is being harmed by that.

    @ Sangre Belleza: As someone who was sexually abused as a child, I do not condone pedophilia. At all. It's a horrible experience and kind of fucks with your mind forever if you're a victim. I do NOT consider shota/loli to be anything like real kids. In the instance of Ciel shota, he doesn't even act/think like a kid at all, which is part of the draw. He is very adult-like in many respects, with hints of boyish charm. Do I think shota/loli might help pedophiles cope? Maybe. But the truth is that I don't think that's what it's "for". For instance, someone who is into bestiality will not be "satisfied" by furry porn. It's simply not the same thing. Philias which are dangerous to oneself or others need to be psychologically treated. It's controversial to say that because people once thought homosexuality was an illness that needed to be treated. But homosexuality is entirely consensual between two adults and is not the same a child or animal abuse. That being said, shota/loli is not a substitute for child molestation/rape. People who prey on children have a PROBLEM, people who look at shota/loli have a kink.

    @ DEATHButler: I am a gay man who is VERY picky about yaoi and it's content. That being said, most CielxSebas yaoi I've seen involves Ciel being basically seduced by Sebastian and then he's being "embarrassed" and calling Sebastian a "baka!" and bottoming hard. I don't really like that plot/situation. Personally, I would take the approach of Ciel being Sebastian's Master, and therefore, Ciel would be a dom, Sebastian a Service Top. That is, at Ciel's command, Sebastian would please him (basically really kinky power play shit LOL). I understand the issue with "glorifying" homosexuality, but I also acknowledge that homosexuality is a real experience (being someone who experiences it). That being said, even Toboso makes constant gay references and fanservice. I think she encourages it, personally. But yeah, I've even though about doing a CielxLizzy piece, but that's SUPER weird, 'cos they're both underage. Idk how I feel about that, LOL. I also thought about maybe doing a CielxLizzy piece when they're older/young adults. 'Cos honestly I think she'd be a babe when she's older, heh.
    Last edited by desideraht; 01-24-2013 at 04:20 AM.

  6. #6
    Merely a Servent ElysionGear's Avatar
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    Morally wrong,

  7. #7
    Member desideraht's Avatar
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    I didn't ask about morals.
    After all, I am reading a manga about a demon eating a 13-year-old boy's soul.
    (I think people often forget how utterly morbid that is.)

  8. #8
    Jack the Ripper DEATHButler's Avatar
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    I still think that it's wrong, because it fetishsizes underage abuse, that's just my stand.

  9. #9
    Member desideraht's Avatar
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    I just don't see it that way. As someone who was raped/molested as a youth, I would never advocate such a thing. I just plain do not apply "consent" rules to fictional people. If Ciel wants sex, he wants sex, and he's not a real person, so it's not like he isn't "old enough to consent" to sex.

  10. #10
    i dont think it illegal cos in victorian times wouldnt ciel be old enough to get married at that age and all that sorry if im wrong im not sure

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